Writing to Publish

W2P GUEST SPEAKERS

Daniel Keys Moran

Mr. Moran is a well-known science fiction author.

[Technical note: from 2011 onward the chat logs appear different, because our W2P guest sessions were held in an IRC-based chat room, rather than via an AOL chat room.]

1/30/12 18:58:12 Opening "Chat Log 1-30-12"

== ewriters has joined #write2publish
== PCarlson has joined #write2publish
PCarlson: Made it!
Rose1533: Good for you.
== Deluge7 has joined #write2publish
Rose1533: Hi, Dale.
PCarlson: Julie is in the middle of their big move
Deluge7: Hello, Carol. Welcome FatSam.
PCarlson: Olivia also sends her regrets
FatSam_DKM_: Howdy all.
Rose1533: Hi, sam.
== Deluge5 has joined #write2publish
Deluge5: How is everyone?
FatSam_DKM_: That you, Paul?
PCarlson: Doing well
PCarlson: I am Paul
Rose1533: I'm fine, Dale.
PCarlson: And you are Mr. Moran, hence the DKM
FatSam_DKM_: Si.
Rose1533: Our guest?
PCarlson: Correct
FatSam_DKM_: I've been FatSam online 30 years.
PCarlson: Cool
Deluge7: It's too much to hope that someone would just drop in.
FatSam_DKM_: But I thought I might confuse people without the "DKM."
== Josie has joined #write2publish
PCarlson: I've been 'sushi' for almost 20
== MorenoHill has joined #write2publish
MorenoHill: Hello, all!!
Josie: Hi Paul and everyone:)
Deluge5: Hi, Adam & Josie.
Rose1533: I've been Rose for a long time.
MorenoHill: (((((((((((((((( Rose of the Lar ))))))))))))))))))))
== TMWNM has joined #write2publish
FatSam_DKM_: I invited people on Facebook & G+. No idea if any of them are coming.
Rose1533: Hi, Adam, and Josie.
MorenoHill: (((((((((((((((((((((( Josie )))))))))))))))))))))))
MorenoHill: What up, Chip?
Josie: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Adam and hugs to all))))))))))))))))))))))))))):)
PCarlson: I do not recognize TMW
PCarlson: Welcome!
Deluge7: Adam uses more parenthesis than a calculator.
MorenoHill: Haw!
Rose1533: (((((((Adam)))))))))
Deluge5: Good thing he's in a humorous mood.
PCarlson: Well I guess we can get started.
PCarlson: Hopefully more folks will come along as the hour progresses
FatSam_DKM_: Who's TMWNM? I recognize the initials ...
PCarlson: A mystery!
FatSam_DKM_: Steve Perry incognito? Or a fan?
PCarlson: Our guest this evening is a well-known author, who's written several long and intricate science fiction novels, and probably more I don't know about
FatSam_DKM_: Not very incognito ...
PCarlson: And sir, the floor is yours. :)
FatSam_DKM_: I'm a programmer and writer. Sold my first story at 18 to Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. Got my first programming job at 20. Made a lot more money coding than writing,
which, given 5 kids and the fact we live in West L.A., has turned out to be a good thing.
PCarlson: Too bad Julie could not make it, she's a SysAdmin
FatSam_DKM_: Started writing again a couple years ago.
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FatSam_DKM_: Published "The Big Boost," a sequel to some fairly old books, back in March 2011 ... and it's sold. And kept selling. Not quit-my-job money, but enough to make me feel I'm not stealing from my kids writing text instead of code ...
PCarlson: Congrats! FatSam_DKM_: Looked at Amazon.com's publishing model, which I like -- I get about $5.50 off an $8 epub. But didn't like *that* much. So I put up my own publishing site as well, fsand.com ... Where I get 97% of the purchase price of each book.
FatSam_DKM_: Books are selling there as well. Having written the site, my wife and I added other writers -- Steve Perry, Margaret Weiss, Matt Stover, a few others coming.
PCarlson: Plenty of hopefuls around here!
TMWNM: Here!
FatSam_DKM_: We're actually acting as a publisher first time for Stover & eluki bes shahar (aka Rosemary Edghill) ...
FatSam_DKM_: Not just selling them on fsand.com, but also on Amazon, B&N, Apple, others as we get to them ... paying royalties from those sites through fsand.com. My wife, Amy Stout, ran Bantam Spectra and Penguin Roc back in the day, so she's well suited for the editorial end of this.
FatSam_DKM_: And I write code. It's worked out well so far.
FatSam_DKM_: Open to questions.
Josie: that sounds awesome
Rose1533: Do you find you have problems with pirating?
FatSam_DKM_: I'm sure I do, but I can't measure it.
PCarlson: Inside-baseball question, who was the editor at Asimov's who bought that first story?
Rose1533: Plagiarism?
FatSam_DKM_: We don't use DRM on our books, and I won't sell a book through a DRM-only platform.
FatSam_DKM_: George Scithers bought my first short story. A darling man. Put up with me when I was plainly hopeless -- I started sending him stuff at 13.
== DA has joined #write2publish
FatSam_DKM_: He finally bought something 5 years later, without ever once observing that I was tragically untalented, though it was true.
Rose1533: OK, what is DRM? I'm assuming it's in answer to my question, but I don't understand it.
DA: Digital Rights Management?
FatSam_DKM_: Digital rights management -- makes you unable to copy and backup books you've bought. Amazon Kindle has it, but it's optional, so we don't enable it.
FatSam_DKM_: I've only ever been plagiarized in Hollywood. No one in publishing's ever done it. I've been pirated in the old Soviet republics pretty often. Don't know why there particularly, but there. A couple times in Japan.
Rose1533: It's been in the news a lot lately, of course.
FatSam_DKM_: Once in Brazil, I recall. But not much, overall.
Rose1533: Since my book went through a publisher, I suspect I'm safe.
FatSam_DKM_: Nope.
PCarlson: Scithers. Know of him, never met. Sheila Williams has commented on some of my submissions, but no sales there as yet
FatSam_DKM_: They'll scan and pirate it. I don't know of any successful writer whose books you can't find scanned and uploaded somewhere.
Rose1533: Hmm. Well they haven't done it yet, at least.
TMWNM: When are you gonna finish Hotel California?
FatSam_DKM_: All of mine were before I ever published them as epub.
FatSam_DKM_: Hello, TMWNM.
Rose1533: It was PRINTED through Amazon's printing company, Create Space.
FatSam_DKM_: When I can? I'm close to finishing the next Continuing Time book, "Live Fast and Never Die.*
FatSam_DKM_: After that, "Hotel California." People will have to wait (not too long, I hope) for the next Continuing Time book.
DA: There will be AIs, and Wars! ::
PCarlson: I read, in Belarus pirating is legal, even hosted on government servers
FatSam_DKM_: Legal's not much of an issue.
PCarlson: A crude way of keeping their restive masses occupied
FatSam_DKM_: Not many people are making money pirating books. It's mostly the readers, best as I can tell.
Rose1533: I'm not making much money with my book, either. ::::sigh::::
FatSam_DKM_: (There's money in pirating movies ... but that's a different market.)
PCarlson: Great to have a well established series going. And a serious fan base!
FatSam_DKM_: "well established," yep. And the serious fan base hasn't hurt. They hung with me through a VERY LONG hiatus. I wouldn't trade my 5 kids for writing during those years, but I'm glad to be writing again.
Rose1533: Got to get my book two completed, but my daughter has taken my computer because she doesn't trust hers. EITHER of hers. My book is on that computer!
FatSam_DKM_: Rose -- Dropbox.
Rose1533: And THIS computer doesn't have Word on it. :(
FatSam_DKM_: Get your text off your computers and into the cloud.
MorenoHill: D'oh!
FatSam_DKM_: You can recover your music and movies and whatever else is on your computers, but text is irreplaceable.
PCarlson: Amen to that
FatSam_DKM_: Any computer with a browser can write. Google docs reads and writes word files. Though the formatting isn't very advanced -- it's still plenty good enough to write stories. (Not scripts.)
PCarlson: Do you have scriptwriting experience?
== julieaway has changed nick to thejuliechris
PCarlson: Julie!
Rose1533: Hi Julie!
FatSam_DKM_: Some. Sold options; only thing ever produced was a Star Trek episode. Deep Space Nine -- "Hard Time."
MorenoHill: Cool.
DA: The Long Run seems a possible movie
thejuliechris: HI guys...too tired to pack anymore
DA: if Gibson can do it...
Rose1533: Cool! I'll have to find that one. We have most of them. On tape, of course. Taped them as they aired.
DA: wow
== jabab has joined #write2publish
Rose1533: I know. It's been a long time.
Rose1533: Hi, Jabab
jabab: Hello
DA: I have to admit it IS weird for someone who writes about hackers to also believe in copyright.
FatSam_DKM_: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hard_Time_(episode)
FatSam_DKM_: I'm a big fan of copyright.
DA: This may be a generational gap thing
FatSam_DKM_: Not so big a fan of some of the steps taken to enforce it.
DA: It is as alien as prima nocta in the hacker community now.
FatSam_DKM_: I'm all in favor of writers and creators getting paid. But when they pass laws to invade your computers to prevent piracy, they've gone too far. Commercial piracy -- sure.
PCarlson: Time to wash out their mouths with SOPA
FatSam_DKM_: Search, identify, destroy. But people sharing files with their friends? You'd have to jail my kids.
Rose1533: LOL!
DA: You'd have to jail everyone's kids
FatSam_DKM_: Yep.
Rose1533: And their parents, too.
FatSam_DKM_: Mostly.
DA: All the big file sharing sites were started by hackers, which is a weird thing
PCarlson: Ouch
DA: minus dropbox, perhaps
FatSam_DKM_: Almost all of what's on my media server I bought ... but not all of it. My HD copy of Sunset Boulevard's not for sale anywhere ... I'll buy it when I can ... But until then, I'm keeping the HD copy.
PCarlson: Looked up "Hard Time" to refresh my memory
FatSam_DKM_: I have an HD copy of Star Wars where Han shoots first .... It'll *never* be for sale, and I'm not getting rid of it either.
PCarlson: Heh, heh. (I've spent far less than 20 years with bars slammed shut -- real or imaginary)
thejuliechris: The problem with cracking down too hard on piracy is that you can alienate your fan base a la Metallica
FatSam_DKM_: So even I can't pretend to purity here.
jabab: I'd be interested in getting a hold of one of those
FatSam_DKM_: Good luck with your friends. I'm not pure, but I'm also not volunteering. :-)
DA: How big is the FatSam fanclub anyways?
jabab: but mostly I've given up hope of finding a new copy that GL hasn't tampered with
FatSam_DKM_: I put up a "spoilers" circle on G+ where I publish bits of works-in-progress -- about 200 people have signed up for it.
TMWNM: George's toy ...
DA: that's pretty big
FatSam_DKM_: I'd guess those are the hardest of the hard core.
DA: yeah My bestselling book sold 100K copies, in 1989.
jabab: I'd sign up too if I had a google+ account
FatSam_DKM_: "The Long Run" --
DA: That's pretty huge in terms of book sales. Nothing since then has sold as well.
PCarlson: An excellent modern-day marketing strategy
DA: how are the kindle books selling?
FatSam_DKM_: It was good in 1989, but not amazing. Today it'd be amazing. I made about $20K last year. From all epub.
PCarlson: I've done panels where audience members did not understand why NOT to put their new works up on Facebook. Like, for public view
Rose1533: Oh, don't I wish!
FatSam_DKM_: Given the length of time since the last book was published, I'm pleased with that.
DA: 20K from epub for books that other than AI War are available on the website is pretty awesome, imho
FatSam_DKM_: Sushi -- ouch.
Rose1533: My book is available on Kindle and POD from everywhere else.
FatSam_DKM_: DA -- I'm not whining. It was better than I'd hoped for.
thejuliechris: 20k is great! Not enough to live on, but enough to make living very nice.
DA: esp. considering lack of marketing really
FatSam_DKM_: Yeah. I've looked into marketing for the next one --
DA: what % was AI War part 1?
FatSam_DKM_: The back cover of Analog/Asimov's is about $4K for one month. Not sure it's worth it, but maybe. I'd probably do a bunch of the fsand titles if I paid that much, not just AI War.
jabab: speaking of....did I miss any mentions of part 2?
FatSam_DKM_: I'm close on Part 2.
Rose1533: 20k would really help us. Living paycheck-to-paycheck stinks!
FatSam_DKM_: A couple months, *I THINK.*
jabab: :)
FatSam_DKM_: Rose -- I know.
jabab: No worries, Martin and Rothfuss have taught me the value of patience
PCarlson: Two of my friends have made the cover of Analog, with their name and story art
PCarlson: It's too much to hope for, but still . . .
FatSam_DKM_: Thank God for David Gerrold -- only person I know with a series suspended longer than mine. (Who's not dead.)
DA: FatSam_DKM_: just FYI, a decent PR person can be had for like 2.5K a month
Rose1533: That's out of my league.
FatSam_DKM_: DA -- that would lose me money at my current rate of sales. Maybe down the road.
Rose1533: WAY out.
FatSam_DKM_: I have daughters in college at UC Berkeley & Davis ... and then 3 sons to get through college. We're doing OK, but we have real expenses.
thejuliechris: Wow!
PCarlson: Top schools, gourmet pepper spray available ;)
FatSam_DKM_: Heh. Yeah, there's that. My kid was there right before the nasty pepper spray incident, but she'd just left when it happened.
Rose1533: Got just the one girl, but she'll be a HS senior next year. ::::gulp:::: No clue if she's going to go to college, and if so, how we'll pay for it.
FatSam_DKM_: If she's got good enough grades, she can get grants and loans and such. I'd send her to a good city/community college the first 2 years, if you can.
thejuliechris: Rose, when the time comes, let me know. I am very good and the financial aid stuff...put myself through a BS and MAFM.
FatSam_DKM_: I wish we'd done it with our daughters. Doing it with my sons.
Rose1533: Her grants will come because she's a special needs kid, not because of great grades.
FatSam_DKM_: Grants are grants.
thejuliechris: Grants are based on financial need...nothing to do with grades, etc. Those are scholarships.
Rose1533: I guess we need to talk, Julie. Ah.
thejuliechris: If you have to take out loans, better to look at private loans at this point. The subsidized ones cannot ever be gotten rid of, even in the event of bankruptcy DA: Waldos and Spyeyes seem closer and closer these days.
FatSam_DKM_: Well, Da's read me. :-)
Rose1533: Thanks for the heads up.
Deluge7: Are you saying it's possible to plan for bankruptcy?
DA: I have, yes.
thejuliechris: No, but that when you sign on to a loan, they are able to change the terms at will, and the loan cannot be gotten rid of, it is a bad idea. Better to charge college on credit cards almost. Student loans don't work like regular debt any longer
Rose1533: CCs are maxed.
DA: Better to get a job on a boat and study computer science on the Internet.
thejuliechris: lol, sorry ;-)
PCarlson: And now a word from our sponsors. Anyone who's interested in an online critique group, we have room for several new participants
PCarlson: http://www.cuebon.com/ewriters/index.html
PCarlson: All volunteer, all genres critiqued. And now, back to our regular programming
DA: One thing I liked about Trent that I thought was annoying about lisbeth is that he doesn't wear leather all the time. Hackers never wear leather.
Deluge7: Are your novels plot driven or character driven?
FatSam_DKM_: I have no idea how to answer that question, Deluge.
Rose1533: Why not?
FatSam_DKM_: I have scenes in my head. I write and plot to get to the scenes. PCarlson: Sounds familiar
FatSam_DKM_: Sometimes this process makes me lose the original image because the navigation from A to Z skips has M ... But I write because I see my characters doing/saying something ... And I want to get it down.
thejuliechris: Hackers wear comfy clothes and drink red bull. ;-)
Deluge7: That sounds like it's plot driven. Some writers say they start with the characters. A few start with the settings. I'm not sure that's recommended.
Rose1533: Oh, OK, if you say so.
FatSam_DKM_: I don't object to whatever you call it. My last novel was built so that I could get a particular scene into it ... not solely for that, but one gag I really liked had to pay off.
DA: which gag was that?
FatSam_DKM_: Spent a fair amount of time getting there ... "You guys really should have seen this one coming."
Rose1533: I've done that. Wrote a short story from a dream I had. The scene I dreamed came at the very end.
TMWNM: Gotta go,Dan'l, Blazers just blew a ten point lead ...
FatSam_DKM_: Ah, ladies and gentlemen, Steve Perry has left the room.
Rose1533: The dream wouldn't fit in my Fantasy story so the short is my try at Sci-Fi.
FatSam_DKM_: If you haven't read Steve Perry's Matador series, you can buy it on Amazon or fsand.com -- great stories.
PCarlson: Adios senor Perry
DA: hahaha
PCarlson: Cool
Rose1533: Do you ever get any of your ideas from dreams? My entire Chapter 28 in my book is from a dream and some scenes in book two and the sequel I'm working on are too.
FatSam_DKM_: Almost never. I once was chased by crystal monsters with sharp teeth in a dream -- that made it into a story.
Rose1533: Hasn't happened lately, I have to admit. LOL!
* thejuliechris thinks that if she wrote too many dreams she would be on a 5150...
FatSam_DKM_: And another time I had a dream where people were rescuing people from disasters under really *weird* circumstances ... that made it in. But those are the only 2 I can recall, over 30 years.
Rose1533: Oh, I know all about crystals! LOL!
thejuliechris: Rose is the crystal queen!
Rose1533: You'd have to read my book to understand. But crystals are a BIG part of it.
FatSam_DKM_: I once *woke up* with the phrase: "But I was dead by then, of course, and so were you, and your grandchildren, and everyone your grandchildren had ever known or loved. And still the tree grew."
FatSam_DKM_: Became "On Sequoia Time."
Rose1533: And I personally wear the same crystal that my two main characters wear.
FatSam_DKM_: But it wasn't a dream, it was a flash right as I awoke. Crystals are good.
PCarlson: Sequoias do have that long perspective
Rose1533: My husband is demanding help. He just had knee surgery Friday. Not leaving, but walking away from computer. BRB
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PCarlson: Ow ow owwwwww
thejuliechris: Doctors with knives = bad.
PCarlson: Daniel, might you share something about your dealings with publishers
DA: So the other question is: Was Captain Hile hacked?
FatSam_DKM_: DA -- sorry. Not answering that.
PCarlson: Something many of us look forward to -- or not The 'big houses' and whatnot
FatSam_DKM_: I'm not clear that a relationship with a traditional publisher is a good idea at this point.
DA: The only publisher I definitely recommend avoiding like the plague is Wiley ::
PCarlson: I've sold a fair amount to monthlies, but not marketed a novel, as yet
FatSam_DKM_: I have no major complaints with Bantam -- they published me in an era when you needed a publisher. They didn't advertise me, and my sales were principally word of mouth ... but the books were in stores where word of mouth could spread.
PCarlson: Indeed
FatSam_DKM_: Today? Honestly, if you're good and you can get ten people to say so, that's probably sufficient seed to start selling.
PCarlson: I'm too timid or something. It'll happen!
FatSam_DKM_: If a big house offered me -- $100K? -- I'd take it. Probably wouldn't take $50K, but if you don't have an audience, here's what a traditional publisher will get you: an audience. If they print 20K books and 50% of your buyers like you?
MorenoHill: That would be pretty cool.
FatSam_DKM_: You can sell 10K directly and make $50K off your ebook royalties ...
PCarlson: So, who is this Hile person? Or non person.
DA: Hile is a character from A.I. War book 1
PCarlson: Ah
FatSam_DKM_: He's a character with a computer in his head who did something unexpected. Everyone wants to know if the computer was hacked.
PCarlson: I hate it when that happens
FatSam_DKM_: I'm ready to have the chip in my head, let me tell you. Hook me up. I'll worry about the patches later.
DA: 100K for movie rights as well might be a good deal
Rose1533: Back.
FatSam_DKM_: Oh, sure. If someone showed up waving real money at me, I'd sell movie rights in a hot second.
thejuliechris: I just need to get the USB port on the back of my skull for information downloads.
FatSam_DKM_: But no one's done that in the past decade.
thejuliechris: Get a good file system and relational database for lookup, and I would be happy. ;-)
DA: hmmm
DA: There are many cliffhangers in AI War Part 1. I have to assume Part 2 is 900 pages long
thejuliechris: I know it was a short visit guys, but need some sleep. Movers are showing up on Thursday, so I accept any positive thoughts sent my way. Have a good week everyone!
== thejuliechris has changed nick to julieaway
FatSam_DKM_: No. Part 2 looks to be around 200 pages. Part 3 another 200 or so.
* julieaway is away: Miles to go before I sleep.
DA: AI War is a trilogy all by itself
FatSam_DKM_: It is that.
FatSam_DKM_: It's 8:00. Nice talking to you all. Any last questions?
PCarlson: A fast hour!
FatSam_DKM_: It was.
DA: let me know if you want proofreading
FatSam_DKM_: Who are you?
PCarlson: Gonna prosecute your book!
DA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Aitel
FatSam_DKM_: Ah. Good talking to you, Dave. Should have known that.
FatSam_DKM_: Why would you prosecute my book? Innocent of all crimes, I assure you.
PCarlson: Is that not what DAs do?
FatSam_DKM_: Ah. I thought you were referencing one of my fans -- a prosecutor up in Seattle. I'm slow.
PCarlson: Good thing he's a fan. For the next time you tear up the Space Needle or something
FatSam_DKM_: Hates the Lakers, but otherwise a good soul. I don't trash places any more. I'm old and respectable. Haven't been arrested in forever.
PCarlson: That is for your characters to handle now.
FatSam_DKM_: Certainly my hope. OK, good night all. Thanks for having me.
PCarlson: Thanks!
DA: Latez!
Rose1533: Good night, Daniel. Thanks!
PCarlson: I'll post the session to our web site, after I get it formatted and stuff
Rose1533: Night, all.
== FatSam_DKM_ [Quit: Page closed]
== Rose1533 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
PCarlson: Thanks everyone, and have a good evening

1/30/12 20:08:31 Closing "Chat Log 1-30-12"

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