Writing to Publish

Back to Main Page

Back to Archive Page

Back to Guest Speakers Page


W2P GUEST SPEAKERS

Katherine Kimbriel

Kathi teaches, and has several F&SF books in print.



10/9/06 6:59:17 PM Opening "Chat Log 10/9/06"

PCarlson: Our greeter Adam is on line
PCarlson: Kathi, our guest, is Dragonrain
Dragonrain89: Oooo, intimate numbers. Maybe I can keep track of everyone...
Dragonrain89: Hi, there!
PCarlson: Carol will note be able to make it this evening, and Morgan's computer is fried . . . :-/
Dragonrain89: I'll give you homework. You can tell them about the book I'm going to recommend.
PCarlson: good!
PCarlson: hi Micki
Mallie1025: I guys--just got back from a hellish 7 1/2 ride from upstate NY!!
Mallie1025: Bad car accident had us stuck for hours
PCarlson: not that upstate is hellish -- just the long drive
Dragonrain89: Do y'all need some info on me, or are we jumping into topic? Uggh -- an accident, or has the weather gone to $#@@?
PCarlson: let's wait a few and see who else pops into the room :-)
Mallie1025: yes, going up was great--made it in 3 1/2 hours
PCarlson: Adam :)
BrownDvs: Hey there, Paulson.
Genjii555: hellooooo
PCarlson: Tiffany! :-)
Genjii555: Hi everyone

PCarlson: I think we are ready to launch the session
Dragonrain89: So -- what is everyone reading? Fiction? Non-fiction?
PCarlson: Kathi writes both!
PCarlson: she belongs to SFWA, yes?
Dragonrain89: That was a "waiting for people" question, but y'all can anseer if you'd like.
Dragonrain89: Yes, I'm a member of SFWA
PCarlson: looks like we'll go with informal chat and Q&A this evening
PCarlson: folks, that means she is a REAL writer ;-D
Dragonrain89: Well -- I actually have something prepared. It's on writing a fiction synopsis. Any takers?
PCarlson: we need advice on that!
Mallie1025: I love paranormal, time travel, shape shifting, witches, sorcerers and a little romance thrown in-easy to please lol
Dragonrain89: Good. First off, I should warn you up front that I have pretty bad arthritis -- so I may be slow responding sometime. And spelling may be erratic, accordingly.
Mallie1025: Nora Roberts just pubbed like that with a vampire in it too!!
Dragonrain89: Mallie, you should like the one I'm blocking out right now. It's a challenge to hit a genre yet be different.
Genjii555: I wish I had arthritis to blame my bad spelling on
Mallie1025: Yes, I dislike pure formula writing and won't write it myself
Dragonrain89: I blame mine on my vocabulary. It's much larger than the words I've ever actually seen written out!
Genjii555: lol
Mallie1025: my keyboard has arthritis as well as me :)

Dragonrain89: Okay, folks -- now that we know we're going to be creative spellers -- what I'd like to tell you about is essentially the "Good Parts" version of a book...
Dragonrain89: ...by Pam McCutcheon. It's called WRITING THE FICTION SYNOPSIS: A step by step approach
Dragonrain89: As I read it, I realized that A) I do the same thing for my "writing" synopsis, but had never used it for my selling synopsis.
Dragonrain89: I should toss in here that I did an article on synopses for WDMagazine. I'm constantly trying to refine.
Mallie1025: There are two?
Dragonrain89: There's Pam's book, which is the most recent. I teach my "good parts" version at cons. Also -- if you know Edge Books from cons, you can order it from Zane.
Dragonrain89: The story from WD appeared 2-3 times, and they recently had someone write a newer article for the magazine cycle.
PCarlson: Cons = fantasy and SF and genre conventions
Dragonrain89: Exactly.
Dragonrain89: Now -- would you guys like this to be a "I ask questions and see if you've had any of this yet." Or --
Dragonrain89: I can give you a "chunk" of thought, and we can discuss it if so inclined.
Dragonrain89: I am NOT counting the number of people in this room....
Mallie1025: only 9 :)
Dragonrain89: Wicked person.
Mallie1025: including you lol
FitterthanUdad: ty for the invitation

Dragonrain89: Okay. Silence means we run with the topic. Let's start at A -- Synopsis versus Outline
Dragonrain89: Do you all understand the different between the two, as far as fiction is concerned?
Beccastrat: Yes.
Dragonrain89: (I'm worried about losing posts by making them too long.)
Dragonrain89: Okay -- my summation -- An Outline tells what happened in a dry, detached manner.
Dragonrain89: A Synopsis is a narrative that shows your story’s progress from start to finish...
Dragonrain89: by describing how character development and emotion affect plot development and vice versa.
Dragonrain89: Outlines can be useful, and can be used efficiently to create a fiction synopsis.  But don’t turn one in. ;^)
Mallie1025: ?
Dragonrain89: You want the editor to be invested in finishing the synopsis -- and then your manuscript sample.
Dragonrain89: Yes, Mallie?
Mallie1025: I wonder why telling the whole story in synopsis is helpful--wouldn't leaving a hook garner more curiosity?
Mallie1025: Aren't you just compacting your novel into a short story?
Beccastrat: ?
Dragonrain89: That's a good question. When I started out, CJ Cherryh told me to use a hook. But -- some editors HATE bring left hanging.
Mallie1025: :) well you are a big help!!
Dragonrain89: It's better to have an intriguing hook in your short cover letter -- you can tell things in the synopsis that don't give everything away.
Dragonrain89: There are three or four reasons why Pam makes the suggestions she does for synopsis writing. You can start listing, or I will.
Mallie1025: So you don't need to give the actual ending just the probable one?
PCarlson: hello Abe & Ellen :-)
PCarlson: our chat is well underway now
Wellnessmommy: hi sorry i'm late
Dragonrain89: Well, not exactly. You want to try and do two things -- get across the best info on both your book/characters AND your style.
Dragonrain89: Which varies from a 10 page synop to a 2 page synop.
Dragonrain89: Do you need all those lengths? Why not practice on what you have now?
Dragonrain89: I should add that I am trying to use Pam's suggestions in laying out a new book. The book assumes you have a book ready.
Dragonrain89: Oh -- important detail. She knows that we don't all read the same books. So she does three examples from Movies --
Dragonrain89: -- and explains why she chose the details the did.
Mallie1025: I am not sure of the difference between a summary and synopsis--I seem to be able to do the summary--the other--not so much
Genjii555: Can you give us those examples, Dragon?
Genjii555: if there's a way to sum it up......... the three movies
Dragonrain89: That means you're into your characters, and overall that's good. Let's start with why you're going to write this.
Dragonrain89: Bah -- too long. I'll try again --
Dragonrain89: Your agent may use a good synopsis as a “short cut” version --
Dragonrain89: 1.) to help pitch the book to an acquisitions editor.
Dragonrain89: Second -- A good synopsis allows the editor to determine quickly if your book is right for her/his line, and if she wants to read any farther.
Dragonrain89: 1.) .  (Even if she starts with the chapters, she will probably, after getting intrigued, turn to the synopsis to see if you can pull off the story.)
Dragonrain89: Editors can use a synopsis to “pitch” to a buying board and/or the senior editors --
Dragonrain89: -- to convince them to buy the book.
Dragonrain89: Yes, this one HAS happened to me. Brian Thomson really liked my synopsis for
Dragonrain89: FIRES OF HUALA. I wrote that WDMag article about that one.
Dragonrain89: Fourth -- 1.) Synopses can be used to help write the back cover blurb, and/or
Dragonrain89: -- given to the art department for use in developing genre cover art.
Dragonrain89: I know one writers who sends a packet of photoshopped stuff to art directors for her books!
Dragonrain89: Now -- at least one of you is thinking "! This will be as bad as writing the novel!
Mallie1025: yep
Dragonrain89: In other words–yeah, it’s as much work as a good short story, but it MAY sell your novel.
Dragonrain89: And -- I promise you, this is not a hard system to learn. I was ill when I read the book,
Dragonrain89: and I was still able to take an old synopsis, mark it up, and create a new synopsis.
Dragonrain89: It was so good, my agent started sending the book out again!
Dragonrain89: I'm gonna give you a few important things that can help narrow your focus for your synopsis.
Dragonrain89: But -- first -- you may send me a note at Alfreda89/at/gmail.com, and I will send you my eight page
PCarlson: my last synopsis was a mess
Dragonrain89: write-up of my "good parts" version to get you started.
PCarlson: they asked for 5 pages and I was all over the place. (I like complex plots)
Dragonrain89: I confess to a healthy terror of synopses. After all -- if I could say it in two pages, why write the book?
Dragonrain89: Being all over the map with a big plot is a common problem. I could name you pros
Dragonrain89: who can get away with no real synopses. But then their editor leaves the house,
Dragonrain89: and they need a new presentation fast!
Dragonrain89: I suggest you start out looking at your story from the bottom line -- who are you writing for?
Dragonrain89: If you don't know your market and target the synopsis to that market, you're sunk. You may also be remembered as a person who wastes postage and time at the wrong publishing line.
PCarlson: me, F&SF all the way :-)
Dragonrain89: Not a bad plan!
PCarlson: or maybe quirky literature
Dragonrain89: Read your genre; write your genre.  Want to mix genres?  Focus–what does the story concentrate on?
Dragonrain89: For example -- Mystery with romantic overtones?  SF with mystery overtones?  Romance with magic/fantasy undertones?
PHeeren: I am reading children's literature now
Dragonrain89: Do you want to write a children's book? Or an older children's through YA to adult book?
JnsnAngel: ?
Dragonrain89: Yes, Angel
JnsnAngel: Do you write in present tense or past tense.
PHeeren: both kid's picture books to adult's short stories
Dragonrain89: Ah -- that is hard. Let me see if I can remember what I scribbled down here (legal meds are the pits...)
JnsnAngel: Allen goes to town. Allen went to town.
Dragonrain89: Let me say this -- some people find present tense annoying. "Present tense" becomes period very quickly.
PCarlson: Paul is finding present tense annoying. He is saying so in that chat!
Dragonrain89: For those of you unfamiliar with my novels -- the Alfreda books are first person.
Dragonrain89: Here's the first paragraph --
JnsnAngel: I wrote one in present tense but it was hard for me. I kept getting them mixed up.
PHeeren: I always use past tense in writing fiction
Dragonrain89: It's very hard -- I had the entire short story TRIAD in next to last version, and a friend caught one slip to present tense.
PCarlson: fussy
JnsnAngel: I just used present in the synopsis. I am having a lot of trouble with my synopsis. Anxious to get your 8 pages.
PHeeren: are you always frustrated all the time?
Dragonrain89: "I wasn't there when Papa killed the wolf. But then girls usually aren't allowed to hunt them."
JnsnAngel: So you used present tense in your whole novel?
Dragonrain89: Past tense for most books -- I've even seen one written in 2nd person. I think I'm the only one who read the dumb thing...
JnsnAngel: Give me an example of second person.
PHeeren: would you please excuse me? I'm getting very tired so I will retire early, if you don't mind
Dragonrain89: It was a dark and stormy night when you came upon the castle.
PCarlson: good evening, Tom
PCarlson: The door will open and you will be astonished!
JnsnAngel: Oh, I don't like it either. Let me understand. You said it should be past tense for most books, but you wrote one in present tense?
PCarlson: sounds like one of those old computer role-playing games
Mallie1025: My first synopsis had a short summary, a pitch to the target audience and the purpose for the book-all anyone needed to know, nice and neat and in one package--now why won't they be happy with this type of sysnopis--mentor told me
Mallie1025: rip it up and start over :)
Dragonrain89: Or worse, something that makes the reader "You." Very convoluted. Like a dream state for 300 pages.
Dragonrain89: Mallie -- do you want me to try and jump ahead, or take you there in stress?
Mallie1025: whatever you think is best
Dragonrain89: I'll jump ahead for a moment. Pam suggests, and I agree with her, that there are basically 3 types of synopsis openings.
Dragonrain89: To make it easy -- we have The Dive, The Hook, and The Map.
Dragonrain89: I'm trying to break this up for your log memory --
Dragonrain89: First -- The Dive is just what most of you are thinking. You dive right in and start telling the story.
Mallie1025: angel, writers like Demille write only in first and are quite good--not everyone can pull it off
Dragonrain89: But there are hints at how to do this efficiently, and to grab the editor's interest.
Dragonrain89: FIrst person is very hard to do -- I did my first three novels in third person multiples -- no more than six POV major and minor, was my goal.
Dragonrain89: In first, you have to discover the "voice"; and decide why you want to do this -- the Senior Editor at HP called and asked me why I wanted first person, not third.
Mallie1025: I am proficient in first because I did many years of non-fiction
Dragonrain89: I explained my reasoning -- I tried to do it in third, and it wasn't as strong a book -- and he said fine. NOTE this -- he said first person is harder to sell to casual buyers.
Dragonrain89: But he didn't try to talk me out of it. He liked it that way. But he wanted me dedicated.
JnsnAngel: So the synopsis and novel should match in tense?
Mallie1025: Yes, while I can write well in first, I don't like to read it much from others
Dragonrain89: Angel, no -- most people do the synopsis in present tense. But here's a suggestion (I do this on tired days.)
Dragonrain89: Write the synopsis in third person, when you have examined the notes from this, and get your hands on a copy of the book. (Request it from inter-library loan, if you must.)
Dragonrain89: Then -- convert everything to present tense. Yeah, a pain -- but sometimes much easier than trying present tense, and slipping in and out of tenses.
Mallie1025: good idea!!I do the opposite when trying to write fiction in third
Dragonrain89: I left a word out, sorry -- write in third person past Tense -- THEN convert to present tense when you're ready to try it.
JnsnAngel: You are so right. I guess I need someone else to read it and see if I messed up.
Mallie1025: Okay--so we have the Dive--now about The Hook and map?
Dragonrain89: It is good to have fellow writers who are serious about a good book and being good crit partners. It's not the same thing -- and I think you always need someone like that.
Dragonrain89: the Hook is, the writer creates a sentence or short paragraph that captures the essence of their story
Dragonrain89: and states it up front to intrigue the reader or set the tone. One they've done that, THEN they Dive into the story.
Dragonrain89: You're all giving me the "Oh, crap, here comes theme" look. Not that bad, I promise.
PCarlson: LOL
Dragonrain89: In fact -- I did it before I knew this technique, with HIDDEN FIRES. Here's the first paragraph from the novel.
Dragonrain89: "He had spent a hundred years seeking the woman called Silver; he still didn't know if he was going to kill her."
JnsnAngel: Very good!
JnsnAngel: Did you use the same hook in your synopsis?
Dragonrain89: I could have put that as a hook -- hinting at longevity treatments, etc. --
Dragonrain89: and then start into a tale of a young man who thinks a freetrader betrayed his freetrader parents.
Dragonrain89: We see from both sides -- and nothing is that easy --
Dragonrain89: I could have used it as a hook. But I sold that book before I knew her system. Basically, I've been using her system all along -- but I'd usually try to condense wrong.
Dragonrain89: This is late for y'all. Shall we continue, or try another time? I should at least give you the Map --
PCarlson: I see most of the gang sticking close to their monitors. :-D
Dragonrain89: The Map is what it sounds like -- when you have a LOT of backstory or major characters, it's hard to get that smoothly into a ten-pager, much less a five pager.
JnsnAngel: Please do tell us the map.
Dragonrain89: Continuing...you actually use subheadings at the beginning of the synopsis. Pam chose the perfect story for The Map -- STAR WARS.
PCarlson: ah!
PCarlson: why oh why did I not learn of this a month ago??? ;-D
Dragonrain89: She demonstrates BACKGROUND -- general about the forces of good and evil -- then gives thumbnail sketches about Luke, Han, Leia, and Darth Vader.
Dragonrain89: (Paul, if what you did works for that editor, you're home and have time to make up something for the art department!)
Mallie1025: So theme and premise would go in map section?
Dragonrain89: Then, she even uses PROLOGUE: as a header, and finally STORY:
Dragonrain89: Actually, theme and premise are going to go on a log you're going to make for each book you want to do in this system.
Mallie1025: Now I am confused--was with you so far
Dragonrain89: Okay -- we're jumping ahead over knowing true word count, finding markets,etc.
Beccastrat: Goodnight guys. Sorry to leave before the end.
Dragonrain89: I think what is confusing you is you're talking about making a topic sentence (to use an evil college term)for theme. But we need to see if spent out for us -- and indirect for the editor.
Mallie1025: So map would be more character and setting sketches?
Dragonrain89: Try setting up a preliminary worksheet to organize your thoughts. (Pam includes one in the book you can copy -- )
Dragonrain89: Yes, Mallie -- at least at the beginning.
Mallie1025: Ok--I am back on track again
Dragonrain89: Back to Star Wars. You're stating part of the theme up front -- the clash of light and dark.
Mallie1025: In the hook?
Dragonrain89: I'm not kidding about this being as intricate as a good short story. But once you learn it, you'll try to think of characters, etc., in this style.
Mallie1025: I write short stories so that's ok--just need to know the set-up
Dragonrain89: No -- in The Map. Theme will probably be mentioned, indirectly, in all three styles. Here is one thing you can do to help focus you.
Dragonrain89: Think of creating a Log Line. Remember the old chestnut about if you can't fit your idea on the back of a business card, you haven't focused your idea?
Mallie1025: No but it makes good sense
JnsnAngel: I was trying to think of the theme of my story. Decided it is. True love is worth waiting for.
Mallie1025: would that be like "Love conquers fear"?
Dragonrain89: Yes! Angel's there!
Mallie1025: I was referring to the business card them
Dragonrain89: In Hollywood, we’d call this the “high concept,” the hook that will interest people in your story.
JnsnAngel: Not exactly. I can't end the sentence in a preposition.
Dragonrain89: It may be the idea that generated your story in the first place.
JnsnAngel: Only kidding.
Mallie1025: True love is worth the wait
Mallie1025: :)
JnsnAngel: Very good Mallie. Thanks.
Dragonrain89: No one sees this prelim sheet except you -- whatever works. Here are three things it needs.
Dragonrain89: Your log line should either have, or imply, three things:
Dragonrain89: Character -- who the story is about
Dragonrain89: Goal:  What the character wants
Dragonrain89: Conflict: What’s keeping the character from reaching her/his goal.
Dragonrain89: Your log line needs all this so you know where you're going!
JnsnAngel: Then you give them the summary?
Dragonrain89: Here's one for Romancing the Stone: A timid {conflict} romance writer {character} must save her sister {goal} in an adventure like the ones she writes about.
Dragonrain89: What's another one? How would you do Star Wars?
Dragonrain89: Everybody relax on summary! It's coming -- but you're gonna craft a synopsis -- and they're gonna be good.
PCarlson: yeah!
PCarlson: star wars , , , hmm
Mallie1025: I sure hope so--the query is a snap compared to it
PCarlson: (sorry, long day as work -- the Force is not with me at the moment! ;-)
Dragonrain89: Here's one for my unpublished mystery BLIND TIGER:
Dragonrain89: @#!!$
Dragonrain89: An artist {character} must discover who is playing “ghost” {goal} in the
Mallie1025: Young man(character) must defeat(conflict) his nemesis to find himself(goal)
PCarlson: aspiring Jedi must save lady he does not know is his sister
Mallie1025: Been a while since I saw the movie :)
Dragonrain89: historical “speakeasy” she is converting into a B&B
Dragonrain89: before the dirty tricks escalate into murder {conflict}.
Dragonrain89: These aren't bad for starter log lines. Here's what Pam suggested:
Dragonrain89: A ragtag band of rebels {character} are the only hope of
Dragonrain89: saving the universe {goal} from incredible evil {conflict}.
Dragonrain89: See what I mean? As you distill, you see what the pole star is. And keep swinging back.
Mallie1025: Impressive!
PCarlson: larger plot vs. personal aspect
Dragonrain89: Those three things again -- character, goal, conflict. Trifecta!
Dragonrain89: I must be honest -- grinding down my 120,000 word mystery to that one line...
Dragonrain89: ,,,took a long time -- like an hour.
Dragonrain89: It's not your imagination -- this is using old skills in new ways.
Mallie1025: Can you give link for Pam's book again--writing this all down
JnsnAngel: Burton Andrews fall unintentionally in love with his bestfriend's widow after he died saving Burton's life.
Dragonrain89: Yup -- but I want to compare Star War's LogLine to her suggestion for theme.
JnsnAngel: Is that Character, foal and conflict.
Dragonrain89: You guys are already there -- Good will triumph over evil.
Dragonrain89: So -- yes, you will be slipping this into the synopsis, but you may not spell it out.
Dragonrain89: WRITING THE FICTION SYNOPSIS: A step by step approach by Pam McCutcheon
PCarlson: We have a Buy Page on our web site
PCarlson: if it's on Amazon we can post its cover with a direct link
PCarlson: or to the Publisher directly
Dragonrain89: Gryphon Books published it -- ISBN 0-9654371-1-6
PCarlson: works either way, but we get a (tiny) cut from Amazon ;-D
Dragonrain89: I recommend it. DOn;t let it overwhelm you --she helps you make cheat sheets!
Dragonrain89: You may want to try this as an experiment for y'all, and compare stuff -- or even better,
Dragonrain89: if you've got written books, and have read each other's stuff -- all of you try to do this
Dragonrain89: for one manuscript -- then see if it works for you!
Mallie1025: this has been most enlightening--thank you!!
JnsnAngel: Thanks so much for taking your time. You will be hearing from me for the 8 page synopsis.
Dragonrain89: Last thought -- she gives you a little page of letter definitions to use when trying this out (like TH for theme). Copy the page and keep it at your elbow!
Dragonrain89: Good writing to you all. If you want to see what I've done -- before and new -- the chapbook has the story I did for the Zelazny memorial, and a new Alfreda story.
Mallie1025: Do you have a website link?
Dragonrain89: It's on my web site. Paul -- link to it from YDP, will you? Don't know if they give you a cut -- but we get nothing for an Amazon sale.
BrownDvs: Goodnight everyone.
BrownDvs: It was great having you here, Kathi.
PCarlson: Thanks,, Kathi
Mallie1025: Yes I have learned more about synopsis than ever before--still hate it though :)
PCarlson: I do the W2P site but not the YDP one :)
Dragonrain89: Oops...lost it. www.ke-kimbriel.com
PCarlson: who *is* the webmaster for YDP, is it Lynn?
Mallie1025: got it--lovely site
Dragonrain89: Yes --
PCarlson: this will all be in the Log, of course
Mallie1025: gotta go guys--most excellent chat
Dragonrain89: Thanks for your attention. I hope it wasn't more than you wanted to know.
Mallie1025: It was but I needed to know lol
Dragonrain89: But this book saved me when I thought I'd forgotten how to write.
Dragonrain89: 'Night! Thanks for inviting me!
Mallie1025: Nice meeting you--perhaps we will see you again soon
Mallie1025: night all stay safe
Dragonrain89: I have to check that I didn't misspeak myself before vanishing...
PCarlson: you could never do that :)
PCarlson: well, dinner time here
PCarlson: thanks again -- this went very well I think
Dragonrain89: I hope so. I couldn't tell if this was concentration or blank stares. ;^)
PCarlson: LOL
Dragonrain89: Thanks -- looks like most of this is right. The Good Parts gets you farther along -- then the book to follow!
PCarlson: the rhythm of chat rooms is different
PCarlson: you get used to it
PCarlson: I have dear chat friends who I have never heard their actual voice
PCarlson: but when we do meet,, it's like old times right away
Dragonrain89: Yes -- I know people who meet chat friends 1/2 way across the country at a midpoint.
PCarlson: well my wife awaits -- better scram! Will ask more Yard Doggies soon
PCarlson: if they want to chat here
PCarlson: thanks again :)

10/9/06 8:41:10 PM Closing "Chat Log 10/9/06"


© 2006 by Writing to Publish, worldwide rights reserved. (Formerly the eWorld Fiction Writers.) All information contained herein is the property of the attributed author or Writing to Publish and may not be copied, excerpted, or reposted on any medium including the Internet except by permission. Contact ewriters@aol.com for details concerning the publication of any material contained in this site.


Back to Guest Speakers Page

Back to Archive Page

Back to Main Page

Top of Page